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1 Let's learn Japanese! on Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:30 pm

cmertb


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I know there are always a few manga readers out there who would like to learn Japanese. Some try and quit, others never try because they're daunted by the enormity of the challenge. This topic is meant to encourage those wishing to embark on this challenging, yet highly rewarding, journey.

First things first:

It is very possible to learn Japanese on your own using mostly online resources. The majority of resources you will need are available for free, you'll just want to get a few (really few) books. Moreover, you would be more successful learning Japanese on your own rather than in a class.

If you work on it almost daily, you may be able to read raw manga of almost any complexity (even without furigana) within one year. If you work extra hard, even less. And that's considering that Japanese, of all the languages I'm aware of, is the most difficult one when it comes to reading.

All of the above is true provided you approach learning the language rationally, utilizing all available resources that make your task easier.

I would say the main purpose of this topic would be to point learners to such resources, to explain to absolute beginners where to start, and to encourage those who feel they're stuck. Basically, advice from people who have already been where you might be now.

I might have a few things to say later on about a) what to learn first; b) how to memorize and retain vocab painlessly; c) how to learn big scary kanji and not lose your sanity in the process.

So please post your questions, comments, opinions right here.

And also, mina-san, ganbare!

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2 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:03 am

There's also a few sites that can help you learn japanese. Me and a friend gathered some interesting ones:

- All Japanese All The Time
- About.com: Japanese Language
- Reviewing the Kanji

and a few online dics
- Yamasa Online Kanji Dictionary
- Denshi Jisho

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3 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:37 am

cmertb


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Actually, there is a trap that many beginners fall into. They try to figure out how to start learning the language and begin collecting links to various sites that can be of use and reading about how to do it, instead of actually doing it. Three months later they end up with 100 links and still no Japanese. I've been there. Evil or Very Mad

In reality, there are about 5 sites you need depending on which approach to learning you take. If your link count goes above that, you just need to stop googling "learn Japanese" and start learning Japanese. Twisted Evil

In order of priority you'd need:
1. Basic grammar intro (which invariably includes some essential vocab, hiragana, and katakana)
2. Vocab lists or drill site (many choices there)
3. Kanji learning site, then go back to vocab in step 2, but now with kanji
4. Dictionary
5. Fun reading material (e.g. manga raws)

Note how much you'll need to go through before you even get to the point where you need a dictionary. And guess what, for each of those items there's only one site that's right for you. So you don't need 100 links. There might be other supplementary sites for some tools you might want to use (e.g., I'd recommend a dedicated app for learning hiragana first and foremost, also memorization tools), but there are about 4 main links that you're ever going to use.

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4 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:15 am

couldn't agree more with you, cmertb

another thing that works but in a really slow manner is just "reading" kanjis somewhere. e.g., browsing nico nico douga. you get some stuff, break it up and translate (with some dictionary, for example). after a while you'll start recognizing some of the kanjis and their meanings.

of course, this isn't some super effective method, but it adds up nicely to the learning experience

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5 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:37 am

Thanks or the links, I'll try and find some time to learn basic Japanese....it's going to be a rough journey.

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6 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:49 pm

cmertb


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Yeah... time is key. If you go about it right, it's not really hard or painful. But it does take time.

On the other hand, the process itself can be pleasant. I just love this passage from "Making Sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin, that describes it better than I ever could:

I often warn my literature students, especially those whose language skills have reached the stage where they can handle new texts with some degree of independence, that, as they read, they should try to maintain a distinction between literary pleasure afforded by the work itself and what might be called "linguistic pleasure" stimulated by the sheer satisfaction of making their way successfully through an orthographical garden, the gathering of whose fruits is only becoming possible for them after years of disciplined study. For the fact is that Japanese, especially for those of us who have learned to read it after childhood, never loses its exotic appeal; each page turned reveals to the eye a new spectacle of outlandish squiggles that momentarily takes the breath away. And written in those squiggles or spoken by the people who were raised in the language are equally outlandish syntactic structures -- not only passives but causatives and passive-causatives and te-forms with oku's atttached or morau's and itadaku's and zu's that make our minds work in ways that can never be conveyed to those who do not know the language. There is a thrill in realizing that you can process this stuff with your very own brain.

I have long been convinced that, as we speak -- but especially as we read this foreign tongue -- just beneath the threshold of consciousness, a voice continually shouts, "Look, Mom, I'm reading Japanese!" And these subliminal cries arouse in us a pleasure that can easily be confused with the satisfaction of reading a good story or book. In fact, there is a danger that the simpler the style of a work and the less challenging its content (which is to say, the easier a piece of writing is to "understand" on the purely lexical level) the more likely it is to grant us that instant gratification of having read something of exceptional interest.


Of course, he warns of the danger of this sense of pleasure, but personally, I embrace it. Twisted Evil

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7 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:55 pm

Also, here's a site that cmertb told me about a month back that he says is useful for efficient memory encoding. Here's the main site.


_________________
"There are no toilets here so I guess you had to elegantly drop a load behind a tree."

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8 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:02 am

Laurel


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I know of one really nice site for learning the written form! http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/completeI also use books like Japanese for Dummies and Japanese in 10 Minutes a Day. I also watch anime in Japanese. <3

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9 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:31 am

im actually learning some japanese right now, but im starting off with kanjis rather than katakana and hiragana.. im using a book that i got from a forum in JCafe and im trying to learn the basic kanjis and reviewing them one by one.. :3 is that also okay? since my method is kind of backward compared to others who start off with katakana and hiragana.. O.O

please give me some advice.. thank you..

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10 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:46 pm

cmertb


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Starting with kanji would probably be the most efficient method of learning Japanese. However, it can also be a real motivation killer. Because you put in heroic effort into memorizing a ton of kanji, and you still don't know Japanese. The only person I'm aware of who successfully did it that way is James Heisig, but he was living in Japan at that time, and it probably made a huge difference. Maybe that guy of the AJATT method too...

In any case, which book are you using?

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11 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:46 pm

i ordered a german book just recently,that should help you to memorize the kanji. i hope it works. Smile

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12 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:49 pm

oh. that's amazing... XD

YEAH! my goodness, have i told myself why I'm doing this yet I still don't know a single Japanese. hahaha. still it's cool when I'm doing it this way and I've got to say they have one hell of a logic using this methods of language. Razz
hmmmmm.. "Teach Yourself beginner's Japanese Script" and "Remembering the Kanji Vol. 1".. oh yeah! i remember! this 2nd book is James Heisig's book.. ^^

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13 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:53 pm

qiche wrote:i ordered a german book just recently,that should help you to memorize the kanji. i hope it works. Smile



is it for us?? Razz i hope it gives us better reinforcement.. Smile i have still a long way to go.. yet im really excited since ive dedicated myself into learning Japanese.. Very Happy Very Happy and btw thank you!!! Very Happy

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14 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:55 pm

hahaha, why for us? Very Happy

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15 Re: Let's learn Japanese! on Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:42 pm

cmertb


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Awesome, I used Heisig's RTK too. 2042 kanji in 50 days. It was the hardest part of studying Japanese. Anyway, if you're interested, I can post my old notes on how to do RTK as quickly as possible. In other words, how I would do it if I had to do it all over again.

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